2 RAPTURES???

[Omega]

According to this self-proclaimed prophetess of God, there are supposedly 2 raptures, not 1.

From Elisabeth Elijah Nikomia...

Dearest Beloved Congregation,

I will be shocked if this is NOT the YEAR our YAHUSHUA RETURNS! The VERY latest next year! What bride doesn't feel the excitement as her bridegroom comes closer? I refuse to believe YAHUSHUA'S bride will be beaten UP and her wedding gown ripped off and face beat up before he comes! What victory is there in that for YAHUSHUA?

I know others take it for granted that they will be counted worthy to go in the first fruit rapture! But even though I try as hard as I can to live HOLY and to work as hard as I can for YAHUSHUA! Believe me before Pentecost the HOLY SPIRIT had put something in my spirit that caused me to FAST and PRAY for at least three days and weep before YAHUSHUA and plead, "OH YAHUSHUA COUNT ME WORTHY to go in the FIRST FRUIT RAPTURE!"

You see there will be TWO raptures! I know this may come as a surprise and I can't say I understand exactly what YAHUVAH meant when he said in a audible voice, "First one rapture then another for those that I love," He also said, "Don't let anyone put a label on you whether it is pre-, mid- or post-tribulation, for it is NONE of these things!"

The entire article can be found here : 2 Raptures

Is this biblical? Or do we have a false prophetess on the web? I would like to here the opinions of the members on this thread. I emailed here to debate on this topic, she never responded.

God Bless!

[Keith]

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV)

[Omega]

Right, those who are excluded from the Tribulation will "all" be changed. However this woman is implying that there will occur another rapture at the time of the ministry of the 2 witnesses which occur during the tribulation I believe.

God Bless!

[Keith]

There ARE two raptures during the Tribulation, but neither have to do with the Church, which is already in Heaven:

1. The Rapture of the two witnesses:

And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. (Revelation 11:11-12 KJV)


2. The Rapture of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses:

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.(Revelation 14:1-3 KJV)

[Omega]

So what are your comments on the article, are you in agreement with her?

God Bless!

[Omega]

admin said:

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.(Revelation 14:1-3 KJV)

I'm not a prophecy expert, but I don't see where you get a rapture in this passage. It simply states that they are the firstfruits of the redeemed. That is, as the firstfruits of the redeemed, they are first to be saved during the tribulation (following the rapture of the church-cf. Rev. 7:1-4). It is actually stating that the 144,000 are the first to be purchased by God among those who dwell on the earth during th tribulation. They represent a portion of those in the great harvest (Matt. 9:37), the first to be "redeemed" (agorazo) which is found 31 times in the New Testament and simply means to purchase. In this passage, the term "firstfruits" (cf. Lev. 23:9-14) which usually anticipated a harvest simply means the first to be gathered among the harvest as a whole during the tribulation. Care to explain where the rapture is found in that passage?

God Bless!

[Murph]

How do you think the 144,000 will get to Heaven to stand at the throne? There were 144,000 on earth and 144,000 standing safe in Heaven before the throne. They are the firstfruits of the Tribulation harvest and are caught up to Heaven, Revelation 14:5. We are not told how or exactly when they are caught up to Heaven but it is before the Lord descends to earth.

While on earth they are invincible...while they Preach the Gospel!

I think that is how we arrive at their Rapture...

[Omega]

duck said:

How do you think the 144,000 will get to Heaven to stand at the throne? There is nothing to indicate they all died.

I think that is how we arrive at Rapture...

Your missing my point, I said where in that passage of Revelation 14:1-3 does it describe a rapture. Take a look at Keiths post, he makes it a point to describe 2 raptures using two passages. One which clearly describes a rapture of the 2 witnesses and Revelation 14:1-3 which says absolutely nothing about a rapture, do you see my point? I am speaking in regards to context. Re-read what I said:

omega said:

Care to explain where the rapture is found in that passage?

That passage!

God Bless!

[Murph]

OK...IC...Revelation 7:4-8

They are sealed...

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Sealed for and from what?

...sealed for the specific purpose of being “evangelists.” The sealing provides protection from the plagues and devastation brought on by the trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as from the wrath of the Antichrist.

In other words none of them is killed or dies...they are Raptured...

Does that help?

[Omega]

duck said:

OK...IC...Revelation 7:4-8

They are sealed...

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Sealed against what?

...sealed for the specific purpose of being “evangelists.” The sealing provides protection from the plagues and devastation brought on by the trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as from the wrath of the Antichrist.

In other words none of them are killed or dies...they are Raptured...

Does that help?

Sealed does not imply "invincibility", all I am asking is that how do you know that the 144,000 were not slain by the AnitiChrist for not receiving the Mark of the Beast? We are "sealed" (sphragizo) Ep. 1:13, 4:30, does this make us invincible? Do you see my point? The 2 witnesses evangelize and are slain, what makes us think that the 144,000 are not slain by the Antichrist for preaching the Gospel? After all, the 2 witnesses surely are. I am open to correction, that is if you can prove definitively that the 144,000 are not slain.

God Bless!

[ldysly]

Hi Omega

I gotta say that I see where you are coming from. But consider the following:

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,


Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

So here we see that the angels are held back from doing harm until the sealing. God marks these people for a reason, so that they are the protected of God.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Now we see a multitude which (unlike the 144,000) can not be numbered.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We now see where the beast is given power to make war with ALL nations, kindred and people. We do not see the 144,000 excluded here BUT.........

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:


Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

We now see again the 144,000 named as a group that are redeemed. Since they are special and singled out more than once specifically, I think that they are excluded from the multitude "that can not be numbered" since they are "specifically numbered and sealed of God". They appear as a total group with Jesus and it is specifically stated that they are "redeemed" not "martyred" as we see the other souls are.

Does this help?

[Murph]

Read Ezekiel 9, maybe that will help you to see what we are trying to explain...

They have the mark of the Living God on their foreheads...

[Omega]

ldysly,

The angels In Revelation 7 do not do harm until the sealing is completed, however does not mean that the Antichrist does not slay them. As I said before, sealing does not imply invincibility. Tell me, who are these who are martyred for being witnesses for Christ in this passage?

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4,5)

It is almost an absolute guarantee that these 144,000 will be persecuted by the Antichrist. However there is nothing which implies that they are invincible, simply that they are "sealed", purchased by God which is what it purely means. BTW, redeemed does not mean they cannot be martyred, that is pure conjecture. The word redeemed simply means "purchased", we are redeemed (1 Cor. 6:20, 7:23), even false prophets are "purchased" (2 Pet. 2:1), the same word used in Revelation 14:4 (agorazo) is used in those passages and simply means purchased. Since we are also "redeemed", does this somehow imply that we are protected from being martyred? The contextual error you are making is that you are substituting the word "redeemed" with the word "invincible," this creates a problem of how the word "redeemed" (agorazo) is used.

duck said:

Read Ezekiel 9, maybe that will help you to see what we are trying to explain...

They have the mark of the Living God on their foreheads...

How do you relate "mark" with "seal"? As I stated before "sealed" (sphragizo) does not mean invincible, we are sealed (cf. Eph. 1:13, 4:30), not invincible. Furthermore, the word "mark" (charagma) is found 9 times, 8 in the book of Revelation alone and speaks concerning the Mark of the Beast. The word "mark" literally means to be "tatooed" or branded as a slave. And the word "mark" in the Hebrew (OLD TESTAMENT) is (tav) and means to be exempt from God's Judgement, no implication that they are protected from persecution or death.

I am here for a reason, and that is to learn more about prophecy from the members here on this board. I am sure someone here can bring more clarity to this subject of the rapture. I look forward to the next response.

God Bless!

[Keith]

Daniel,

The hundred and forty-four thousand are twelve thousand Jews from each of the twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8). In Revelation 14:1 they are standing on Mount Zion with Jesus, the Lamb, with them. Two verses later they are singing a new song, which only they know, before the throne of God because they were redeemed from the earth.

If you recall, we are redeemed at the rapture:

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Luke 21:28 KJV)

[Omega]

admin said:

Daniel,

The hundred and forty-four thousand are twelve thousand Jews from each of the twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8). In Revelation 14:1 they are standing on Mount Zion with Jesus, the Lamb, with them. Two verses later they are singing a new song, which only they know, before the throne of God because they were redeemed from the earth.

If you recall, we are redeemed at the rapture:

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Luke 21:28 KJV)

Do you know that the book of Revelation is full of allegorical and symbolical words? Mount Zion more than likely is symbolic for "Heaven", Hebrews 2:22 is a perfect example:

Hebrews 12:22 - But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Mount Sion clearly symbolizes Heaven, and the only other time it is mentioned in the New Testament is in Revelation 14:1. Take a look at the context of Revelation 14:1-3, they are standing on Mount Zion "Heaven" (v. 1), then a voice is heard in "Heaven" (v. 2), the 144,000 are before the throne of God in "Heaven" (v. 3). Stood on mount sion is likely symbolic for victory in Heaven. Unless you can prove to me that Mount Sion is the literal Mount Sion and tie it in with prophetic passages in Revelation or any other passages in Scripture, context rules in Revelation 14:1-3 as referring to the 144,000 already in Heaven. The Redemption in Luke 21:28 certainly refers to the redemption of the bodies, however the verb "redeemed" (egorasmenoi) as used in Revelation 14:3 is used 7 times in the New Testament (Lk. 1:68, 24:21; Gal. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:18; Rev. 5:9 [does not imply rapture] 14:3,4) and simply means bought, usually by ransom, i.e. Christ's. I look forward to more reponses.

God Bless!

[Murph]

Now, my advice for what it might be worth Omega, is to read over all the Scripture that has been posted and pray on it. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you to understand...then sleep on it...Might take awhile and He will literally illuminate it for you. Best way it can be described is that the true meaning will light up in your mind like a light bulb going on...but beware, sometimes the light comes on in the middle of the night. I sleep with my Bible by my bed and a pad of paper and pen.

One other little thing. Throw out all the other books, commentaries, Greek and Hebrew, and etc. Nothing wrong with some of that but best thing is to stick to the Bible.

Duck...

[Omega]

duck said:

Now, my advice for what it might be worth Omega, is to read over all the Scripture that has been posted and pray on it. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you to understand...then sleep on it...He will literally illuminate it for you. Best way it can be described is that the true meaning will light up in your mind like a light bulb going on...but beware, sometimes the light comes on in the middle of the night. I sleep with my Bible by my bed and a pad of paper and pen.

Good advice, but I can assure you Duck, I do just that and MORE! I have been a Christian for over 50 years and can actually "feel" the presence of the Holy Spirit as He guides me into all truth. I still look forward to Keiths response to my last post to him.

God Bless!

[Omega]

duck said:

One other little thing. Throw out all the other books, commentaries, Greek and Hebrew, and etc. Nothing wrong with some of that but best thing is to stick to the Bible.

Duck...

I can assure you that I don't rely on commentaries and rarely use them, and I don't know what other books you are referring to. I have taken courses in Greek and Hebrew and have theological degrees, you cannot tell me to toss this out the window as if it were not of vital importance. All the prophecy experts and all of the great preachers of the past and present use Greek and Hebrew to determine the truths of the bible, the Bible was written in Greek and In Hebrew and must be understood in its original language. So as for that advice, it is not coming from God.

God Bless!

[heavenbound]

omega said:

duck said:

One other little thing. Throw out all the other books, commentaries, Greek and Hebrew, and etc. Nothing wrong with some of that but best thing is to stick to the Bible.

Duck...

I can assure you that I don't rely on commentaries and rarely use them, and I don't know what other books you are referring to. I have taken courses in Greek and Hebrew and have theological degrees, you cannot tell me to toss this out the window as if it were not of vital importance. All the prophecy experts and all of the great preachers of the past and present use Greek and Hebrew to determine the truths of the bible, the Bible was written in Greek and In Hebrew and must be understood in its original language. So as for that advice, it is not coming from God.

God Bless!

Now I believe you missed the point duck was making to you Mr. Omega.
When we read the Bible, we are to pray asking for His revelation to understand His Words and how to apply them in our walk.

While I agree that translating Latin and Greek is necessary for many to comprehend His Word, I don't agree that the theories of man should be interjected. Too many people become misled and deceived by man claiming to have cracked codes, and by a self imposed theory of God's Word.

A theory to me is nothing more than man sharing their personal anology with another. In turn this man then shares his or hers anology with another, and so on and so on.
I don't believe that having a theology degree or one being a Christian for "X" number of years, qualifies them to fully understand or interpret God's Word, more acurately and thruthfully than another. Only God canreveal His Truth to all who seek earnestly to understand. God offers me the highest degree of understanding that I could ever hope to receive and desire!

Man's theology is merely "hog wash"to me! Now, if one really desires to study the Bible to understand His Word fully, then you should go directly to the Author, asking for revelation. Not man! I see nothing wrong with people study the Bible together and sharing personal understandings, but I don't believe we should voice our understanding as that of absolute truth to another. I see too many people who have too much head knowledge over heart knowledge, which often blocks their capability to truely understand God's Word.

Now as for this topic; whether there be 1 or 2 raptures to me is irrelevent to what God asks of us; to bring many to Him. Are we working earnestly to do this when we discuss such things as this, and arguing over specific word meanings to one or another?

"Mark" also a word used in military terms; "mark time" means marching in place. Not moving forward nor backwards, just stationary, yet legs moving. Sounds like some Christians I know.

Oh well, just put my foot in this.

YSIC, Diana

[Keith]

omega said:

duck said:

I still look forward to Keiths response to my last post to him.

I have nothing to add brother. This is one of those times that Scripture's been offered, so like Marilyn said, you just have to ask Him to reveal the Truth's of those Scriptures to you...