The Real Christmas Story

[Murph]

Archbishop says nativity 'a legend'
By Sophie Borland

The Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday that the Christmas story of the Three Wise Men was nothing but a 'legend'.

Dr Rowan Williams has claimed there was little evidence that the Magi even existed and there was certainly nothing to prove there were three of them or that they were kings.


Dr Williams argued that the traditional Christmas story was nothing but a 'legend'

He said the only reference to the wise men from the East was in Matthew's gospel and the details were very vague.

Dr Williams said: "Matthew's gospel says they are astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire, that's all we're really told. It works quite well as legend."

The Archbishop went on to dispel other details of the Christmas story, adding that there were probably no a***s or oxen in the stable.


www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=JHPSTTVO4EG5FQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/12/20/nwise120.xml

***

Let's take a look and see...

[Murph]

When we look at the passage in Luke and Matthew we do see that alot of legend has grown up around the real story so lets cut all the legend away and look at the real story of the night Jesus was born.

All through the OT we are told He is coming. Long ago and far away Jesus did just that. He stepped out of eternity and came to earth. It may well have been winter...dark and cold.

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not...That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:4-5,9

An angel came to Mary, Gabriel, and he told her she would bear the body of Christ into this world. She was betrothed to Joseph, a carpenter from Nazerath. When Joseph doubted the story Mary told an angel also appeared to him in a dream and Joseph believed and obeyed...and took Mary for his wife.

Agustus was Cesear then and declared that a census be taken...just like today...more taxes. Every man had to go back to the city of his ancestors to register for this census. Joseph was a descendent of King David and King David was born in the small town of Bethlehem just 6 miles or so out of Jerusalem. So Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem.

Now we go to Luke and Matthew and see what really happened.

the ole Archbishop has some of what he is saying right...but we are going to do a surgical job on what man has added and cut to the real story. The one told in the Bible...

It is more beautiful than anything any man could ever imagine...

What a wonderful and mystical night it was!

[Keith]

duck said:

The Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday that the Christmas story of the Three Wise Men was nothing but a 'legend'.

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (2 Timothy 3:5 KJV)

[Murph]

he is right...three wise men is a legend tacked on my man.

There were without a doubt more than three and an entire enterage traveling with them. They brought 3 kinds of gifts and that is where 3 comes from. They were maji from the east, astronomers. They studied the stars. Several studies I have read have identified their country as Babylon. It is quite possible the information they had concerning the birth of a great King was from Daniel himself or some of the other Jews taken into the Babylonian captivity.

But that is just for starters...the word translated "inn" in the Bible is not like a Holiday Inn or even a bed and breakfast. Bethlehem was a small town and at that time was husseling and busseling with all the people who had come to it for the great census. Most of the better places were already taken by Roman Soldiers stationed nearby and in town to keep the peace.

Back to the word inn. Actually what the greek word is describing was called a carravanium(probably mis-spelled it). It was something very kin to our campgrounds. It was a three sided structure, usually two stories. There were sleeping cubicles on the second floor. Straw was laid on the flood and the traveler supplied the rest...bedding and what-not. The animals were quartered on the first floor. The caravans stabled their camels, donkeys and some horses...pack animals. The Roman soldiers stabled their horses there. The animals were teathered near the center and feeding troughs or mangers were placed around the prerimeter.

All Mary and Joseph had to do was look into the sleeping stalls to see that they were all full. There was no inn keeper as such. That left only one place...and it was not unusal for the people coming thru with caravans to sleep on the first floor with their animals and merchandise they were carrying. Other travelers too would sleep on the first floor when the didn't want to leave their belongings or when there were no stalls on the second floor.

[Murph]

There may have been donkies used as pack animals or transportation, there were certainly camels and horses. There were no sheep as traditionally shown in manger scenes. They were out on the hillsides with the shephards just as the Bible tells us. May have been a stray chicken or two...and certainly mice...maybe a bird or two also...nesting up in the eaves.

It was dusty, dirty, and smelly. Not at all a place for a King to be born but that is were our King was born...in a stable.

Kind of like the world He came to save...dusty, dirty smelly teaming with all kinds of lost humanity...Jew and Gentile...noisy and no place to really get any rest...

Often Mary and Joseph are shown with Mary riding a donkey. That is not in the Bible either. Very likely they walked to Bethlehem...quite a trip but they were young...most studies put them at between 14 and 19 years of age. Just children by our standards. There was also no inn keeper mentioned in the Bible accounts...that's because there wasn't one.

[Murph]

out on the hillsides just outside town were the shephards. And if that Archbishop took the time to look he would have learned that from time to time it does snow in Bethlehem...it is not all that unusal...In one of my books, and it is a beautiful picture, is a photo of Jerusalem in the snow...remember Bethelem is just 6 miles away.

Israel is a very unusal country...it is like a composite of all climates squeezed into one place. Did you know they grow banannas in Israel?...and in some areas there are actually more than one growing season...marvelous country Israel...something very special about it.

From 70 AD to 1948 AD you couldn't say that...there was no Israel. It is always amazing to me that people don't realize how significant the re-birth of the tiny little country of Israel really is...

"Even as the tree"...partial fulfillment, but there it is! Amen! Just like the Lord told us it would be someday.

Our Lord, What a Savior!

I love Him and I love Christmas because of Him...

[Murph]

Now we come to my favorite part of the story because it is about us. Two friend of mine sang a beautiful song about the Maji at our Christmas Service last Sunday night. This "ole fowl" sat there and cried...

They are a married couple and I could just picture them at the kitchen sink washing dishes and practicing as they worked. Dot sang part of it in Spanish as we have some members in our church who came here from Mexico and we wanted to make them feel "ta home."

My favorite account of the Birth of Jesus is in Matthew. This is the part I like the best. The Maji or wise men were Gentiles...

[Murph]

The wisemen came sometime after Jesus was born to the house where Mary and Joseph were living at the time. From the account Jesus was probably under 2 years of age. They brought with them gifts fit to give a King and they worshipped Him...

The night Jesus was born His birth was announced by the Angels to shephards on the hills outside Bethlehem...they were Jews.

Far off in the desert, traveling in the dark of night were the wisemen following a star, looking for a King. They were Gentiles.

It is with them that we travel...looking for the King...

[Murph]

Scantly told...much like the accounts in Luke and Matthew. So the Archbishop is partially right. There is degree of legend to the story. But strip away all that has been added over the centuries and we have a story, the greatest story ever told, a beautiful story of how God loved us so that He sent His only begotten Son to save us. And one day He is coming back to fetch us home.

Jesus is coming back...

Merry Christmas...

[Caretaker]

God bless you;

One might want to note that Jesus was presented in the Temple for circumcision on the 8th day, and that when the wise men came the family was in a house. Herod had all the young children under two years of age killed.

In Luke 2:16 it says that the shepherds came and found the babe lying in a manger.

In Matthew 2:11 it says when they came into the house they found the young child with Mary His mother, and they fell down and worshipped Him and then presented Him their gifts, which were gold, frankincense, and myrrh. The Word is silent as to the quantity or numbers of these three gifts.

The common factor in the night of Jesus' birth with the shepherds and angels, and the coming of the wise men was the star.

From the Word it would appear that the wise men came some time after the birth. After the visit the family went into Egypt.

There were three types of gifts given, but no indication as to the number of visitors. It would have been quite an group with all of the servants and men at arms.

They do not watch their flocks by night in December in Israel.

Winter (December through early March):
Weather fluctuates, with some winters mild and sunny and others severe and overcast. Usually there is substantial rain and possibly snow in January and February. Most daytime temperatures will be in the 50s or 60s, but Jerusalem and the Galilee Hills average 40 degrees with very cold nights.


The logical birth date would have been September. There is a comparison with Messiah and the Jewish festivals.

If Jesus was conceived, incarnated in the womb of Mary during Hannakuh,(The Festival of Lights), He would have been born in September during the Feast of Tabernacles. When God Tabernacled(dwelt), among men. He was sacrificed as our Passover, and He ascended and then sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

There is speculation that the Last Trump might sound on the Feast of Trumpets, and He could return on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. Just speculation.

Just some thoughts. It was the Roman Catholic Church which established the birth of Christ on Dec. 25th, so as to make a pagan festival Christian, and legitimize its celebration.

The Puritans outlawed the celebration of Christmas when they founded Plymouth, as it was a time of revelry and drunken debauchery in England.

It was the German influence which established Christmas in the United States in the 1800's. It was in the 1830's that Southern states began to establish Christmas as a holiday, and it spread during the 19th century, do to such authors as Washington Irving.

thehistoryofchristmas.com/ch/in_america.htm

[Murph]

Thanks Caretaker and it is good to see you...been a long time...too long. Missed you.

"...I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." Revelation 22:16b

[Caretaker]

duck said:

Thanks Caretaker and it is good to see you...been a long time...too long. Missed you.

"...I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." Revelation 22:16b

God bless you Sis, and what a precious blessing you are to your Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I tended to gravitate to a few other forums, and I got busy with moderating a couple. My goal during this slack time at the lake is to renew old fellowships, and be present on the precious forums which I hold so dear in my heart.

More grandbabies, the recent loss of two of our elder family members,(my wife's Mom and Aunt in less than two weeks), an ice storm last week that lost us power for four days. Empty nest with the last kids moved-out. Has been an interesting season, but also one which solidified the glorious truth of Romans 8, knowing without a shadow of a doubt that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Will stop-in as I visit the other 4 primary sites, and I sure enjoy reading Preacher and BH's thread. We have a female boxer named Angel that loves her squeeky toys, and hops around like a bunny rabbit when Jan and I come home.

YBIC

[Keith]

Beautiful Marilyn. And all God's children said "Thank You Father for sending our Savior!"

And, long time no talk Drew! Good to see you, and merry Christmas...

[Caretaker]

admin said:

Beautiful Marilyn. And all God's children said "Thank You Father for sending our Savior!"

And, long time no talk Drew! Good to see you, and merry Christmas...

God bless you Brother Keith;

It is so precious to see you both, and I figure on kind of sitting in the rocker by the fire for a spell, and visiting on a daily basis if Y'all don't mind an old greybeard with fleas...

May you be so blessed in our precious Lord, light to a darkened world, hope for the hopeless, succor for the suffering, the filler of our hearts, and the guidance throughout our days.

[Keith]

caretaker said:

...if Y'all don't mind an old greybeard...

HEY! I resemble that remark... ;D

Love ya' brother! Look forward to having you around more...

[Murph]

would love to pull a rocker along side in front of that fireplace...mind a ole white haired fowl joinnin' you two greybeards?...I got no fleas but my dogs got some...they are not adverse to sharing...

didn't know you had a boxer...good to hear from you again and catch up on all that is happening in your life...

My kids are all grown too and gone from home...just me and my dogs ramblin 'round this big ole house now. I do have some interesting dinner partners though. Lately it has been Moses. Last night Matthew and John...Dr. Luke dropped in for a spell too...gets crowed sometimes but I have a big table...

Glad for the company Caretaker and hope you will stay for a long while.

[Rednek32]

I hope yall don't mind but I am gonna post the sermon notes I prreached one Christmas at the nursing home. If ya do mind then yall can delete it ifin ya want.

God bless

[Rednek32]

The Manger Points to the Cross:

I am going to be looking at 2 different stories and 2 different sets of people that are “famous” for being at the manger after Jesus was born. The first is found in Luke 2:6-12:

Luke 2:6-12

6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
KJV

In verse 2 here Mary wraps Jesus in swaddling clothes. What exactly is swaddling clothes?

SWADDLE
These were long, narrow strips of cloth wrapped around a newborn infant to restrict movement
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers).

Little did Mary know that 33 years later Jesus would be wrapped in a different kind of cloth and that would be a burial cloth and that instead of a manger He would be layed in a dark cold tomb? At birth Jesus was laid in a most likely borrowed manger and after His death He would be buried in a borrowed tomb.

Phil 2:7-8

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
KJV

God didn’t need to use anyone to bring Jesus here but so that Jesus would be fully man and fully God He was born of a virgin. He was spotless not born into sin like we are but born to be the spotless Lamb of God.

I just think it is awesome that the first ones that were told besides Mary and Joseph about Jesus’ birth were the shepherds watching their flock. Shepherds being the first ones to come see the great shepherd.

John 10:7-18

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
KJV

These shepherds seeing the one that would lay down His life for the sheep of this world. To provide a way out of this ole sinful world of lust and hate.

Notice that the shepherds didn’t come to see Mary or Joseph they came to see what the angels had told them in verses 10-12 of Luke 2:

Luke 2:10-12

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
KJV

They came to see the Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

I know people use a verse to try to bring glory to Mary in all this but ya know what Mary was a sinner just like you and me and she needed a Saviour also. This isn’t about Mary it is about Jesus. God taking on the flesh of a human and Mary just happened to be the tool God used. The same way God would use a preacher or any Christian to give someone the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that person being convicted by the Holy Spirit and accepting the gift of salvation.

Now let’s look at another set of people that are most always shown in nativity scenes:

Matt 2:1-13
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
KJV

These wise men were actually called magi but I won’t get into that, the main thing here is that these men weren’t there at the manger when Jesus was born.

Jesus was probably 1-3 years old at this time. These men didn’t come to see a baby they came to see a young child. Another interesting thing I noticed when reading these verses was that they came to a house. Well at the time when Jesus was born a manger was usually in a stable.

MANGER

A feeding-trough, crib, or open box in a stable designed to hold fodder for livestock.
Mangers were also carved in natural outcroppings of rock, such as livestock being stabled in a cave; some were constructed of masonry.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Who did these men come to see? Was it Mary? Was it Joseph? It was Jesus. Not only did they come to see Him the “fell down and worshipped Him.”

Oh the humble beginning of our Lord and Saviour Jesus. He had a very humble birth yet was worshipped my men that traveled from far away to worship Him. He was humble in that the angels told the shepherd first about the Saviour Jesus being born. This humble beginning points to the humble death Jesus would die 33 years later. In humility He was born and in humility He died. Yet even though He died in humility He didn’t stay in that tomb He rose from the grave. The first Christmas God gave us the best and only gift we will ever need and that is the gift of the spotless Lamb that was born to die on a cross for you and for me.

Do you know my Jesus? Is He your Lord and Saviour? If not now is the time to accept Him into your heart and receive the greatest Christmas gift ever given. That gift was Jesus being born to die for each one of us.

[Caretaker]

Amen Brother Rednek!!!!!!

A fantastic Christmas message and such a blessing to the hearts you share with.

Luke 2:
25: And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26: And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27: And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28: Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29: Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31: Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32: A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
33: And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

[Murph]

God Bless you Bill my old friend and brother...

You can still preach 'em good. I have listened to the recordings you sent of the sermons you have preached many times and treasure them.

Merry Christmas old friend. It is good to see old friends even if it is just on a MB...for now.