Dave
New Member
Saved by Grace!
Posts: 17
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Post by Dave on Jul 23, 2006 17:44:32 GMT -6
I need your thought on the Roman Catholic Church. I am trying to deal with a person who flat out resists believing that this religion is a dangerious game to play. Believes nothing wrong with asking a priest for forgiveness, or praying through mary etc. Having diffulicty this person frequents this board so help me out.
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Kristi
Junior Member
Posts: 252
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Post by Kristi on Jul 23, 2006 18:12:36 GMT -6
I Think we should ALL Pray for your Friend... Jesus Christ can Change them and anyone! Pray and Show a lot of Love to your Friend, Let them see Jesus in you!
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Post by citizen on Jul 23, 2006 20:46:55 GMT -6
Hi, Dave I'd just ask you to prayerful about the probability that your friend is already your brother in Christ. Thoughtful discussion between the two of you about your differences may be very fruitful for each of you (iron sharpens iron). But in the end, the Holy Spirit will do the convicting. We really are different parts to one body, and I think sometimes we need to take care in questioning His other servants. Don't be angry ... and remember the fruits of the Spirit! Look for them in your friend as well. You will both be in my prayers.
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Post by Keith on Jul 23, 2006 21:04:22 GMT -6
I need your thought on the Roman Catholic Church. Repentance verses in the Bible: Matthew 4:17, 11:20, 12:41, 21:29-32; 1 Kings 8:47; Job 42:6; Ezekiel 18:30-32, 33:11; Mark 1:4, 1:15, 6:12; Luke 13:3, 13:5, 15:7, 15:10, 16:30, 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 11:18, 17:30, 20:21, 26:20; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 2 Timothy 2:25; Hebrews 6:1; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 2:5 and 2:21.Penance verses in the Bible: 0 -------------------- A Priest cannot absolve sin. Through Jesus’ name only can you be forgiven: "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." ( Acts 10:43 )-------------------- And, a Priest cannot grant salvation. Through Jesus only can one be saved: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." ( Acts 4:12 )-------------------- Catechism of the Catholic Church Part Four - Section One - Chapter Two - Article Two (The Tradition of Prayer) "2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused."But, the Bible says: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)Mary even acknowledged her need of a Savior: "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior." (Luke 1:46-47 KJV)Edited to add: Ask this of your friend brother Dave, if one is truly saved and Jesus is their Lord and Savior, why would they wish to remain with a Church that so contradicts God's Word? - Keith
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Post by Caretaker on Jul 23, 2006 21:12:49 GMT -6
Catholic Catechism
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsist it in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267 The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403 883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404
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The Greek word used for rock (petra) is played against Peter (petros). Some use this passage to teach that Peter was the foundation stone of the church, that he had a primacy among the apostles, and that he became bishop of Rome. The verse will scarcely bear the first of these propositions, and certainly none of the others. Peter may be meant by the rock, but he was not the exclusive foundation. The twelve-fold foundation of the apostles of the church:
Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Rev. 21: 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
This seems borne out by the fact that the words spoken unto Peter in Matt. 16:18, were spoken to all of the disciples in Matt. 18:
Matt. 18: 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The rock or foundation of the church is the confession (ultimately the doctrine) of the apostles, which became normative for the true church.
The word church (Greek ekklesia), means literally “ a chosen or called out assembly”. Thus the use of the word as a technical term for an assembly or group of believers in Christ was quite natural. It was not viewed as an external organization, denomination, or hierarchical system. The New Testament Church is a local autonomous congregation or an assembly which is a church in and of itself. John writes to 7 churches, in His Revelation, not to one.
Scofield commentary:
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Peter There is the Greek a play upon the words, "thou art Peter petros-- literally 'a little rock', and upon this rock Petra I will build my church." He does not promise to build His church upon Peter, but upon Himself, as Peter is careful to tell us
(1 Peter 2:4-9) 2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone--rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God-- 2:5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and valuable cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame! 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe; but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected-- this One has become the cornerstone, and 2:8 A stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that trips them up. They stumble by disobeying the message; they were destined for this. 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
church:
2 (Greek - ajpovllumi (ek=="out of," kaleo =="to call"), an assembly of called out ones). The word is used of any assembly; the word itself implies no more, as, e.g., the town-meeting at Ephesus Acts 19:39 and Israel, called out of Egypt and assembled in the wilderness Acts 7:38. Israel was a true "church," but not in any sense the N.T. church--the only point of similarity being that both were "called out" and by the same God. All else is contrast.
Following are several of the doctrinal statements made on Justification at the council of Trent. After each Canon are scriptures that contradict that Canon.
Finally, you will see the word "anathema" used many times by the Council. This means that those who disagree with the doctrines of this Council are cursed. In Gal. 1:8-9, the word "anathema" is used. The curse must come from God. Therefore, we conclude that according to Roman Catholicism, anyone who disagrees with the following Canons are cursed of God. The Roman Catholic church excommunicates those under anathema. In other words, excommunication means being outside the Christian church. Being outside the church means you are not saved.
In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently. Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.
1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28). D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1). F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).
2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed" . "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12). A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28). B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27). D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." . "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema." . "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28). C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21). D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19). E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13). • Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3). A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3). • Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1). A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).
• Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema. . This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
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Omega
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by Omega on Jul 23, 2006 21:15:25 GMT -6
Amen Keith!
The precious blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7), and when Christ cried out "IT IS FINISHED" on the cross, it did not mean to be continued in HELL FIRE.
The doctrine of purgatory nullifies Christs atoning work on the Cross and makes a mockery of it, and balatantly implies that Christ's precious blood was and is insufficient to cleanse us from all sin. No prejudice here, this is Gods infallible and inerrant word.
God Bless!
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Post by Keith on Jul 23, 2006 21:25:34 GMT -6
Hi, Dave I'd just ask you to prayerful about the probability that your friend is already your brother in Christ. Not 'probability' Lori, POSSIBILITY. Being a Catholic no more makes you saved than sitting in a garage makes you a car. And it works the same for Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc, etc, etc. Jesus saves, not a church or those who run it...
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Post by citizen on Jul 23, 2006 21:47:15 GMT -6
Hi, Dave I'd just ask you to prayerful about the probability that your friend is already your brother in Christ. Not 'probability' Lori, POSSIBILITY. Being a Catholic no more makes you saved than sitting in a garage makes you a car. And it works the same for Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc, etc, etc. Jesus saves, not a church or those who run it... Amen! No argument there ... I would have used the same word regardless of the denom he named. Maybe that's optimistic on my part ... but in any case, it's at least possible.
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Post by mikeengland on Jul 24, 2006 4:39:30 GMT -6
Ok firstly let me get a couple of things straight here.
Ok I think This friend doesn't say about asking a priest for forgiveness. or Praying to Mary.
Confession of Sins I cannot see anything wrong with here.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The Roman Catholic Church, also called the Catholic Church, is the largest CHRISTIAN Church in the world. According to the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the Church's worldwide recorded membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000, a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000.
Countries with the greatest proportion of Christians (as of 2002):
1. Vatican City, 100.0% (Roman Catholic 100.0%) 2. Greece, 98.0% (Orthodox 97.0%, Roman Catholic 1.0%, Muslim 1.3%) 3. Romania, 97.4% (Orthodox 86.8%, Roman Catholic 5.4%, Other Christian 5.2%) 4. Portugal, 97% (mostly Roman Catholic) 5. Poland, 96% (mostly Roman Catholic) 6. Republic of Ireland, 95% (mostly Roman Catholic) 7. Argentina, 94% (mostly Roman Catholic, Jewish 2%) 8. Spain, 94% (mostly Roman Catholic) 9. Croatia, 92% (Roman Catholic 88%, Orthodox 4.4%, Muslim 1.3%) 10. France, 90% (Muslim 8%, Jewish 1%) 11. United States, 84% (Muslim 0.5%, Jewish 2%) 12. Brazil, 80% (mostly Roman Catholic)
my Question to all here is do you think Catholicism is a cult religion.? also what is Canan? Thanks Mike E
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Post by Caretaker on Jul 24, 2006 5:17:56 GMT -6
The Roman Catholic Church teaches salvation through the sacraments of the RCC. The Word declares faith alone in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic places their faith and trust in their church. The Christian places their faith and trust in Christ. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ www.justforcatholics.org/crucial_questions.htmFor by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9). I was brought up in a Catholic home. I heard the Evangelical message for the first time when I was 14 years old: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Evangelicals teach that a person is saved by faith in Christ alone, and not on account of personal good works. To my mind this teaching was clearly wrong and dangerous. Wrong, because St James says that faith without works is dead; dangerous because it seems to encourage careless living since a person is not saved by works. I was determined to study the Bible for myself. To my surprise I found that James’ concern is to distinguish between true and counterfeit faith. “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?” (James 2:14). That kind of “faith” is worthless; it cannot save anyone. True faith is recognized by the fruit it produces. The central question was this: “Is a person saved by true faith alone? Or is he saved by faith plus the merit of good works?” The answer of the Bible is clear and surprising: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Ephesians 2:8-10). Saved through faith ... not of works! It is amazing: the same Bible that so emphasizes holy living and good works, also states that salvation is not based on personal works. The Christian does not depend on his “goodness” or his efforts, but trusts completely in another Person, the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Bible says that we are saved “not of works,” it is referring to our efforts. Certainly it does not imply that salvation is an easy task. In fact the work of salvation is so great that no-one could perform it except God Himself by His Son. It was necessary for the eternal Son of God to humble Himself and become a human being, and having lived a perfect and sinless life, He was crucified. “Christ has redeemed (freed) us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’ ” (Galatians 3:13). The payment for my sins was the precious blood He shed; not my works and penance. Certainly that is why God wants me to believe in Him. One question remained: Why then should I perform good works at all? Immediately after stating that we are saved “not by works,” the apostle Paul writes that we are saved “for good works.” Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation. Today I am an Evangelical Christian and I'm sure of heaven. This is not presumption for I'm not depending on myself and my deeds anymore; I trust in Jesus Christ, knowing that His death on the cross is the sufficient payment for the penalty of all my sins. My sole desire is to live worthy of the One who loved me and gave Himself for me. I am concerned for Catholics (and others) whose life is overrun by sin and yet feel that it would be fine at the end. The Bible warns them that their faith is dead and useless to save them from Hell. On the other hand, I'm also concerned for devout Catholics who are afraid of God’s judgment, and are doing their best to merit forgiveness and grace. They claim to believe in Jesus, but they really don’t because they are relying on their own goodness and righteousness. I want to share the same Good News I heard in my youth because it is the message of the Bible. If you want to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus and stop trusting in yourself or anything you do. Stop clinging to your religion, and with empty hands receive the free gift of salvation. Then, for the rest of your life, do good works out of gratitude to our gracious and loving Father. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ www.justforcatholics.org/www.justforcatholics.org/a111.htmThe Priest, A Judge Question: Your statement that priests claim to have the power to "judge sinners" is false. The priest does not judge the sinner. The first thing that must occur before a sin can be forgiven is true contrition. The church does not teach that sins are not forgiven unless they are forgiven by a priest. The priest is there to help the sinner truly know his sins are forgiven. Answer: I am often ‘corrected’ for my ‘misunderstanding’ of Catholic doctrine. Oftentimes it turns out that I know Catholicism better than my Catholic friends suppose. Please take a second look at what the Catholic Church teaches on the Sacrament of Penance. Contrary to your statement, the Catholic church teaches that ordinarily, confession and absolution are necessary to receive forgiveness. The Baltimore Catechism asks, “Could God not forgive our sins if we confessed them to Himself in secret?” The answer is given, “Certainly, God could forgive our sins if we confessed them to Himself in secret, but He has not promised to do so; whereas He has promised to pardon them if we confess them to His priests.” That is an amazing statement, for nowhere in the entire Bible are we told to confess our sins to a priest, whereas the Lord Jesus told us to pray to our Father in secret, to ask Him to forgive us our debts, and assures us that He will forgive us if we forgive others as well (Matthew 6:6-15). This is Christ's solemn promise: "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you" (Matthew 6:14). You can also check the official writings of the Catholic Church to see if the priest acts as a judge while administering the sacrament of penance: It is true that priestly absolution is the dispensation of another’s kindness; yet, it does not consist in the mere ministry of proclaiming the Gospel or of declaring that the sins have been forgiven, but it has the pattern of a judicial act in which the priest pronounces sentence as judge” (Council of Trent, Session 14, Chapter 6). Absolution is “a judicial act” and “the priest pronounces sentence.” The priest is not there as a friendly counselor or to assure the repentant sinner that God has forgiven him. Contrary to your assertion, your church warns you that: If anyone says that the sacramental absolution of the priest in not a judicial act but a mere ministry of pronouncing and declaring to the one who confesses that one’s sins are forgiven…anathema sit (Council of Trent, Session 14, Canon 9). Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that the priest acts as judge over the penitent and that God's forgiveness is mediated through the priest. While human judges are needed in civil society and even within the church to regulate human relations, they have not power either to know the heart or to grant God's forgiveness. James' admonition applies to the proud pretentions of the Catholic priest: "There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?" (James 4:12) I appeal to you to abandon this human tradition. Listen to the Word of Christ. If you want God's forgiveness, pray to the Father in heaven, and He will most certainly answer you (Matthew 6:6-15). Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Murph
Moderator
Be kind to your web footed friends. Amen?
Posts: 68,437
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Post by Murph on Jul 24, 2006 5:47:07 GMT -6
"Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that."
Judas repented to the priest. But not to God. Did that save him? Only the Lord as Caretaker points out has the ability to forgive and forget.
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."Matthew 27:2-5
I also question the Catholic belief in faith plus works. That belief calls into question in my mind the Redemptive work of Christ. Catholics blur the line between Justification and santification and say as the Judiziers did. They were Jews who said that Gentile Christians had to obey the Old Testament law to be saved that Paul wrote about in Galatians.
The Catholics by making works necessary for one to be justified by God end up with a different gospel completely.
That in and of itself would make the difference between Catholics, Protestant and Baptist beliefs significant and very important.
Those who put their faith or trust in the teachings of the Catholic Church acknowledge that their “works of righteousness’ can justify them or sanctify them. But these works will not because they are like “filthy rags” before a Holy God,
"... we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away"Isaiah 64:6
Christians put their faith solely in the fact that we are
“... justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God...” Romans 3:24-25
and that God saves us
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. ” Titus 3:5-7
They appear to be denying the work of the Lord and saying instead that it is our works...
that makes it another Gospel.
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Post by Keith on Jul 24, 2006 8:33:45 GMT -6
Ok firstly let me get a couple of things straight here. We love you Michael...
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Post by Caretaker on Jul 24, 2006 9:11:50 GMT -6
Ok firstly let me get a couple of things straight here. We love you Michael... Amen!!!!!!! For myself it is imperative that the Roman Catholic know that it is ONLY through faith alone in Christ ALONE that one is redeemed. There is NOT ONE sacrament of the RCC which saves their eternal soul. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ www.justforcatholics.org/a14.htmThe Catholic Church Teaches Salvation By Works Question: You mentioned something about how the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through works. This is contrary to everything that I’ve discovered about the Catholic Church. Answer: Many Catholics will not agree with you. They frankly admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in order to merit salvation. In its official writings, the Catholic Church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification: Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1) Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema. Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema. Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema. Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema. Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works! What about Canon 1? Question But you forgot to mention canon 1, which clearly asserts that we are not justified by our works. "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema." Answer This canon gives an initial impression that Rome denies justification by works just as the Bible (and evangelicals) also do. In fact it does not! The canon simply says that a man cannot be justified by performing the works of the Law by his own natural powers. However, the same canon indicates that a man can 'receive divine grace through Jesus Christ' to perform the works necessary for justification. In other words, Rome teaches that God helps man to do good works and hence to fully satisfy the Law. Only then is a person qualified to enter heaven. The Council of Trent elaborates this idea in chapter 16: "For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, - we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace..." To be fair, we should acknowledge that a great emphasis is placed on Jesus Christ and the grace of God. Good works do not originate in man's natural ability but can only be performed through Jesus Christ. Yet, it is also true that these works do not cease to be the good works of the Christian; personal works give him the right to heaven. So then, what is required for a person to be justified at the end, that is, to be accounted to have fully satisfied divine law, and therefore to merit eternal life? Trent answers: THEIR GOOD WORKS! Their good works fully satisfy the divine law. Their works merit eternal life. Catholic theology insists that the Christian's good works are truly his good merits, and by these works, he preserves and increases the initial righteousness received in baptism to finally attain eternal life (canons 24 and 32). Without doubt, the official documents of the Roman Catholic Church teach justification by works. In contrast to this, the Bible declares: “Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes (reckons, credits to one’s account) righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4:4-6). The Bible asserts that he who "does not work" but "believes" is justified before God. Justification is not the reward for our works. Justification is the free gift of grace which we do not merit. The works that a Christian performs - and every true believer performs good works - are not the basis of their acceptance before God. The blood and righteousness of Jesus is the only basis for the believer's justification. "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him... by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:9, 19). That is the true Gospel; Rome’s message is counterfeit. Note: When reading Trent's canons on Justification, keep in mind that the Protestant teaching is constantly caricatured as if we hold that there is nothing more to salvation than the remission of sins. Nothing could be further from the truth. We believe that regeneration and sanctification are integral aspects of salvation. So, for example, concerning canon 11, we do not exclude the grace and love poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, we do not believe that our standing before God is based on our inherent righteousness, but only on account of the righteousness of Christ imputed (credited) to us by faith and His substitutionary sacrifice for our sins. Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes.
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Post by heavenbound on Jul 24, 2006 9:20:55 GMT -6
This comes from a person who was raised 15 years, learning from the KJV Bible, of which I now cling to as The Whole Truths of God, without error. Then for 20 years(via marriage)entered to Catholic teachings. Please note, I did not state, followed them or believed in them, or adhered to them. I was very thankful to my parents for having given me the foundational teaching of the KJV Bible. Had I not had this Truth first, I may have easily been led into what I now view, as a very ritualistic, misleading religion. Many do not have this comparison before them, which I found to be vitally important to my spiritual foundation. It is very sad and confusing to a child raised in this religion for several reasons. I witnessed rituals taught to these children, who go through the motions, because it is expected of them, first by their parents, and then by the church. Being told that something like this is done, just because this is the way it is, is not a good answer, especially when such is to become their spiritual foundation. They are taught to worship and confess, and recite based solely on what their church as elected to follow. Explanations as to why are only revealed as one grows, and these often come via one's individual seeking. I was fortunate in that I was an adult, and thus threw out questions of such teachings immediately. I was immediately led to my KJV Bible, which I had kept hidden from my now ex and his dedicated catholic family. God led me to His scriptures of truths for every question I had to clear my confusion. His leading also allowed me to stand strong to not adhere to such rituals, teachings and all beliefs of this religion. I am happy to claim that through God's continual guidence, I was able to remain true to my grounded foundational KJV Bible teaching while sadly observing the rituals continue around me.
The best way I have learned to teach anyone The Truth is to compare the KJV Bible scriptures against any other. Ask them questions and allow them to ask you, then compare scripture. For example, where in the Bible does it say we are to confess sin through man or a called minister or priest? Where in the Bible does it say that we can pray the dead into Heaven? Where in the Bible does it say we rest in purgatory until His judgement, or where a purgatory even exist. Where in the Bible does it say that a child of 7 or 8 is now old enough to partake in communion of the Lord's Supper, and the girls dress in white, bridal type attire? Where in the Bible does it say that at ages 12 or 13, it is time for a child to make a profession of faith; in other terms, accept or reject His Salvation gift? Where in the Bible does it say that a baby must immediately be baptized after birth, lest he/she die in original sin(sprinkled also)? I have serval more questions, but these were many I threw out for myself, which were clearly answered in the KJV Bible, and were not clear to me in the version which a priest uses.
Sorry to have gone on so long with this. I don't refer to this as a sore subject for me, but truely an eye opening one. I feel truely blessed to have been given a KJV Bible foundation prior to having entered this catholic religion. To me the catholic teaching is a very ritualistic training, which does teach idolistic beliefs of Mary, as well as their priests called upon to lead a church. Idolistic shows forth in that they still attach virgin to Mary's name and pray to her, and they put their priest as an intercessor of one's absolution of sin.
Line up your teachings with His Truths, and ask questions!! If not amonst others, ask God, and He will lead you to the right answers.
Love, YSIC, Diana
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Dave
New Member
Saved by Grace!
Posts: 17
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Post by Dave on Jul 24, 2006 10:01:57 GMT -6
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find"I didn't expect so much information to be delivered so quickly. Thanks for all the information. And may anyone who read the posts get into the word of God and discover the truth. Remember what Jesus said! John 14:6 'Jesus saith unto him, I am the way °, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."Thanks May God Bless All Dave
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Omega
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by Omega on Jul 24, 2006 10:32:01 GMT -6
I have nothing to add to what has already been said on this thread, and I have pretty much retired from debates. I do however like the rest here care for you Mike, and desire that you take what has been said on this thread into consideration and with a sincere heart. Thats all!
God Bless!
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Murph
Moderator
Be kind to your web footed friends. Amen?
Posts: 68,437
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Post by Murph on Jul 25, 2006 20:56:35 GMT -6
Just wanted to add my voice to the rest here Mike. Am concerned for a little brother from across the pond. Will be adding my prayers too.
Duck
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Post by mikeengland on Jul 26, 2006 19:01:12 GMT -6
Its a pretty big pond ;D
Thanks God Bless all of you. Mike E
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Murph
Moderator
Be kind to your web footed friends. Amen?
Posts: 68,437
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Post by Murph on Jul 26, 2006 21:09:04 GMT -6
hee hee...everything looks like a pond to a Duck...
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