For Heavenbound and others...

[Murph]

Heavenbound asked about the anti-christ. She asked if any of us have any notion as to who it might be. Though we are looking for Jesus to return, that topic, whether we care to admit it or not is a curosity to us.

Paul had something to say on that matter and it tells us alot today and might help answer Diana's question but poses another at the same time.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."

the question then becomes...falling away? Have we seen a falling away or are we seeing the falling away? The falling away appears to relate to the church and not to the unsaved...so have we or are we seeing the falling away?

Might be a good topic for discussion. On Red's MB we are getting ready to study Jude...

Train is a comin' which ever way...don't need no ticket you just get on board!

Amen!

[Murph]

Falling away as in falling away from the Faith. Jude is about contending for the Faith. The Holy Spirit in Jude gives some pretty clear pictures of falling away.

[Keith]

duck said:

"...for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

[/b] and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."[/quote]

We're definitely seeing the apostacy occuring Marilyn. Many who claimed salvation are turning to a gospel of salvation other than Christ.

The man of sin will soon be revealed to those entering Tribulation when the Day of the Lord begins...

[Murph]

Might be interesting to look at what and how people are falling away from the faith, and at exactly what falling away means. We might be better able to avoid those traps and to help others if we understand more about falling away.

[Omega]

"Falling away" (apostasia) literally means to defect from the truth "a standing away from," or the repudiation of the Christian faith. This will occur at the appearance of the son of perdition (cf. 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-5). Apostasy occurs because of worldliness, temptation, insufficient knowledge of Christ, persecution, lapse in morality, unbelief and forsaking the spiritual life and worship (2 Tim. 4:4; Lk. 8:13; 1 Jn. 2:19; Matt. 24:9; Heb. 6:4-6; 3:12; 10:25-31). The only other time (apostasia) is used is in Acts 21:21 and refers to departure. There are however those who also believe that "falling away" refers to the rapture since the verb "aphistemi" is used to refer to a "departure" 12 out of 15 times. Furthermore a definite article is used in reference to (he apostasia) "The Falling Away", thus referring to a specific event unlike many who have departed from the Christian faith throughout History. So it is determined by its context. Conclusion, the 2 Chapter of Thessalonians speaks of the deception of the son of perdition and admonishes to stand fast, and hold the traditions which we have been taught, whether by word, or the epistle. The Antichrist will remove and cause "self-professed Christians (false converts) to depart from the faith. Therefore, the "falling away" in 2 Thess. 2:3 more than likely refers to a departure from the Christian faith.

God Bless!

[Keith]

"falling away" - Greek #646/apostasia - defection from truth, forsake.

---

The Biblical term "falling away" means defection from the truth that the Bible speaks of, which would be Christ Himself (John 14:6). So, those who had originally claimed salvation through Christ now 'defect' from the Bible's truth of salvation through Him only. Since a Christian cannot lose their salvation (John 10:28), those who defect from the truth were never saved to begin with.

To expand on this further, "falling away" literally means to be forsaken, which is the destiny of the lost because they never had the Truth of Christ. Notice the difference in the Bible's description of the saved:

"Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;" (2 Corinthians 4:9 KJV)

A Christian is told they will have tribulation, or trials, during their earthly life, but they are never forsaken. We may be cast down in fleshly turmoil, but never destroyed. Jesus said:

"...In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33 KJV)

Those who truly come to salvation do so knowing in their heart that Jesus is the only way, and never depart from that truth:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 KJV)

[S F Lord]

The question that this raises for me is in the area of timing and what Pre-Trib rapture folks hold to be true, and that is a rapture prior to the anti-christ being revealed.

What is the time interval from the verse " for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."

It could be that after the pre-trib rapture their is a time of great falling away, different that what we think we are seeing today and if be believe in a pre-trib departure then we will not be here to see what II Thess. is referring to.

We could say that what we see today is a falling away: God out of Govt., Inclusion, can't mention Jesus in schools. I think you know what I mean.

Depending on what Christian news service, article or book you read there tends to be an equal amount or more people coming to the Lord and just as many taking off to crazy, nut case beliefs.

Bottom line, I don't think we know the time frame between "falling away" and "man of perdition revealed"

[sybaelle]

What I have been seeing over time is a change in how the Gospel is presented. The focus has shifted completely over to God's love for us and how we can freely approach Him at His throne without putting emphasis on the Holiness of God. He can't look upon sin and only through the covering of Christ's blood sacrifice are we able to come back to the Almighty Creator of everthing. We are supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and I often wondered about this verse in the bible since there was so much lalala God is our friend preaching going on.

I believe the modern church, seeing its membership decline, overcompensated in its Gospel message to entice people to stay. The Salvation message is there but a lot of people can be deceived into not taking the whole situation seriously. It appears that there has to be some kind of gimmick attached to the Gospel so that the church pews can be filled. I think this is where we see the people who cry out to Christ at the end and He says "Depart from me, I never knew you." It is a watering down of the whole message. People don't want to hear that they're sinful and an abomination in God's sight. They want the lalala God is our friend and everything is peachy message, and with the kinds of obstacles placed in front of them through this watered down teaching, few are able to push through to find the whole message.

We also see the interfaith movement going on and that is nothing but Apostasy. I was watching some of the other videos yesterday at the youtube site where the Rapture videos were and was completely appalled at this one guy, claiming to be a Bible scholar, stating to the world that the Bible clearly says that God isn't going to solve the current situation but that it's our responsibility to make the world a better, happy peaceful place. I had my fourteen year old daughter sitting with me watching this and I had to stop and talk with her afterward just to make sure she's not soaking up any of this filth.

It is a precarious road we walk. It is the narrow path, and not the easy path. And that doesn't seem to be what is being preached to people these days.


Edited because grammar is our friend.

[Keith]

semperfilord said:

Bottom line, I don't think we know the time frame between "falling away" and "man of perdition revealed"

I think you're right Bob, what we're perceiving to be a "falling away" now may be only a drop in the bucket to what takes place right after the Church is taken but right before the man of sin is revealed.

sybaelle said:

I believe the modern church, seeing its membership decline, overcompensated in its Gospel message to entice people to stay.

Our Pastor hits on this very thing all the time Syballe! There's a LARGE church in town who's members seldom, if ever, hear the Truth from the pulpit.

Years ago, while 'church shopping', we attended this facility. *I hesitate to call it a church* Not once during the service were we required to open our Bibles. The Pastor, during his message, actually quoted lines from a novel by Herman Melville. My brother-in-law, who attended with us that day, said to me upon leaving "Well, we certainly didn't get any meat with THAT meal, did we."

Oh they have all the accoutraments needed to grab souls off the street who want to be entertained: a video rental center, their own book store, an auditorium with large screen TV. *Super Bowl Sunday evening services are usually cancelled in favor of the game on the big screen for whoever in the congregation wants to attend*

The Truth is seldom told from our pulpits anymore. This is but one reason why there's going to be people in Hell thinking they were too good to be condemned.

I thank God regularly that He led us to our local church, for we get meat with every meal...

[sybaelle]

This is what is concerning me about my church now. When I first started going, over two years ago, it was wonderful. Meat at every service, joyful praise and people who were serving God to fulfill the Great Commisssion.

Now...things have been slowly changing. The focus seems to be shifting. We meet in a movie theater but they bought land several years ago on which to build a church. They had a vision, and they were going to build it through volunteers. Now...they just extended their line of credit to finish it because it wasn't getting done fast enough and every service I get the reminder of how I'm supposed to be tithing. Well I know this and it kind of kills the cheerful giving thing if you're constantly being told how you have to do it and all. Now the vision is more like a mega church with 20,000 members. If I wanted to go to a mega church I could go to Willow Creek in Barrington. But it's too big. And then there's the whole Purpose Driven thing that I've just become aware of.

So now...what do I do? Find another church? I guess so, but it's hard to leave especially with my children who have found friends and activities they love. And doing what's best for your children in this situation is really really hard to figure out.

[Keith]

sybaelle said:

So now...what do I do? Find another church?

I know how you feel sister. Nita and I were in the same predicament several years ago...

We joined a wonderful little church and things at first seemed to be fine. Wonderful Pastor, loving congregation, but then things changed. The Pastor began preaching a series of messages that didn't set well with many members of the congregation. It didn't matter to them that what he said was the truth...they didn't want to hear it.

First, tithes began to dwindle, then membship dropped dramatically and then there was a continual feeling during the services that something wasn't right. We privately talked with the Pastor, with whom we had become close friends, and told him the underlying feelings from many within the congregation were beginning to effect our personal fellowship and walk with the Lord, and that we felt the need to depart from it.

He said he understood and didn't blame us for leaving. A few weeks after we left, the remainder of the congregation voted to eliminate him, and he passed away from a heart attack a couple of years later. *I still believe he actually died of a broken heart*

We tried several churches, as I told you of one above, when the Lord led us to where we are now. Nita and I both had the feeling, upon entering the chapel for services the first time, that we were at home! Never have we had the sincere love that we have from brothers and sisters as we do at our local church, nor have we ever heard the Truth preached in a church so regularly and so courageously by any other Pastor than ours.

What I'm saying Sybaelle, is prayerfully let the Spirit lead you to a church where He wants you to be. It may mean some trial and error in your search, but He'll let you know when you've found the right one...

[sybaelle]

Thanks for your kind and uplifting words! I have been in prayer about the whole situation and do trust that I will be led in the right direction. It has been difficult, more because my mother in law is firmly entrenched in this church and is very upset with me right now because of the feelings I have been having. I have been in seclusion lately, while I work things out and also to work on the writing and music that I feel God wants me to do. Having forums like this to converse on is very helpful.

[ldysly]

I think the falling away began long ago and we are now beginning to see the real fruits. From the 60's on we saw "acceptance" being touted everywhere as we still see today. Whatever is the popular flavor is what is driven home and this is mainly in pursuit of that old evil "more money". We began with good intentions (and don't we all know where that leads?) and the original motives were pure. Racial equality, equal pay, protection from domestic abuse...these are some of the totally positive and needed changes brought through acceptance. BUT.....abortion, gay marriage and adoption, living together without the benefit of marriage and the "victim mentality" as in "I can do anything I want and be excused because..." are also all byproducts of this.
People hear what they want to hear. So they will wander until their ears stop itching and they get fed what they want. I don't even think they know that they are falling away! We have churches who would rather gather money than spread the Word. Their motivation is lost in what the world has been shaped into. Try flipping the channels on the TV and see if you can find any channel that doesn't look like it's on the verge of pornography. There is no such thing as the family hour anymore.
It comes down to a choice..do you want to be "comfortable" in this world or do you want to follow God's Word? It is a narrow road but then again "This world is not my home, I'm just a passing through. My treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue."

[Keith]

ldysly said:

It comes down to a choice..do you want to be "comfortable" in this world or do you want to follow God's Word? It is a narrow road but then again "This world is not my home, I'm just a passing through. My treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue."

No truer words Sylvia! Blessings...

[Rednek32]

i also agree with ok everyone here. diana has a couple threads at cic talking about friendship and God being love and as i read them and this thread i thought about what my pastor said to me one day after we had gone out visiting people and we were eating lunch. he said that the friendship me and him were building is built on one thing the blood of Jesus for us to be actual friends and brothers we will challange each other in our walks and also in our preaching. this man has been a real blessing and i thank the Lord that He brought me and diana back to our Church.

as far as the apostacy goes i believe we are seeing the fruits of what has gone on before in other words this country is reaping what it has sown. it just seems so easy for anyone and everything to just go ahead and put the label "christian" on it yet when the Word of God is brought in to the place people get offended and start calling anyone that stands by what the Word of God says as being judgmental. i believe we haven't even come close to the worst of the apostacy becasue after we are raptured out well then the "judgmental Christians" will be out of the way so that the ones left can be even more tolerant. as far as i can recall and my brain don't always function very fully lololololololol but sin is still sin no matter how colorful or innocent or "right" people want to call it. ok i've rambled enough.

God bless

[Murph]

OH MY! So many good and true comments...and I agree...What we are seeing is the fruit of the root.

The minute the Lord crushed the head...and then unveiled the Church...then the mystery of iniquity was already at work. Lord planted wheat and the devil, under cover of darkness planted tares right by them. The fish in the net are both good and bad all swimming in the same net. Pictures of the Church in the end times. Little snapshots given to us by Jesus and He will sort the whole thing out.

As in the days of Lot. It was sudden. The angels hurried Lot and his family out and BOOM! Up she went. Sodom and Gamorah(can never spell that word) were gone along with some others...burnt to crispy critters. The area where it is thought the cities of the plains existed even today looks like it melted...

Don't look back. There is a custom in the south...it is not polite to look back behind you. I have often wondered if that is where the custom comes from.

OT is full of shadows of things to come...well, 'cept the Church...it was a secret, a mystery...

[preacher]

Actually the Church,...the Bride, is there. Read Gen.24!!

[Murph]

Some also say Song of Songs and Ruth are shadows of the Church...but in the OT God kept His plans for the church a secret...a mystery. We can see looking back that the shadow might be there...

have heard it put this way. On the Day of Pentacost 120 individual believers walked up the stairs to the upper room to pray. The Holy Spirit came and the church walked down the stairs that day. And still we walk across history and the gates of Hell has not and will not prevail against us...

Amen.

going off call in 30 minutes, feeling pretty good about that, been a rough weekend...decided to brag on the Lord...to celebrate gettin' off call...Mornin' Preacher! Praise the Lord!

[Murph]

SF! Mornin'!

I wondered the same thing and looked at the verse...

" for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."

Looks to me like the falling away comes first then the man of sin is revealed. I think we have seen the falling away speed up in our lifetimes to a very rapid pace and as the coming of the Lord nears it will probably speed up more and get much worse.

Once the Holy Spirit steps aside and withdraws His restraints and the Church is withdrawn to Heaven, then things are going to spiral down immediately. Nothing will be here on earth to stop it till the Lord comes in judgment...

So I think we are smack dab in the middle of the Apostacy...keep our shields up and Swords drawn...Eph. 6.

Ole Satan isn't just walking to and fro now. He is stompin' to and fro...tick tick tick...