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Post by veterinarian on Jan 10, 2011 15:22:16 GMT -6
I may have opened myself to some negative comments on a veterinary website.
There was a veterinarian who posted this question: Do you believe that physician-assisted suicide should be legal in certain circumstances?
My answer was no. There were about 75 replies to the question (which was posted on 1/8/2011). The "no" answers were less than 5, including mine.
There were several scary stories of loved ones suffering. These stories were used to justify the answer of yes. I know that no one in this life has the knowledge/wisdom necessary to determine when a human life should end, but I don't remember any specific Bible verses.
I cannot change my mind about this subject. God is the one who is in control.
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Murph
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Post by Murph on Jan 10, 2011 16:04:08 GMT -6
"Thou shall not kill." Exodus 30:13
What part of that do they have trouble understanding?
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Murph
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Post by Murph on Jan 10, 2011 16:11:55 GMT -6
"kill" in that verse is actually translated "murder."
Thinking physician assisted suicide is justifiable is another example today of calling something by another name and thinking that makes it OK. Euphansia(sp) or physician assisted suicide is still murder just like abortion is. Just calling it by another name.
There is not one example I can think of, of anybody killing another to put him out of his misery. Nobody who was saved that is...there was King Saul who asked a soldier to kill him on the battlefield. The soldier didn't do it tho.
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Post by veterinarian on Jan 10, 2011 16:50:55 GMT -6
I have always thought that it is very easy for doctors (for humans or animals) to develop the "god complex". Because they make life and death decisions every day, there is the tendency to think that one has the right to make quality of life decisions.
I find that I have that tendency; because I make quality of life decisions frequently every day, I find that it is easy to pass judgement on someone's quality of life. But I am working with animals; not people. I have a God given responsibility to take care of animals (His creation); I do not think this responsibility includes deciding when a person should die. But many veterinarians seem to have lost the ability (or desire) to draw the line between human and animal when it comes to deciding whether life is worth living.
What I have written sounds a bit confused to me. But I am not confused about the fact that I do not have all the answers, so as a result it would not be right for me to decide it is time for someone to die. That is all that assited suicide consists of: you are writing a prescription so that someone can commit suicide, so you might as well have killed that person with a weapon.
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Post by veterinarian on Jan 10, 2011 16:59:19 GMT -6
It bothers me that so many of my collegues support assisted suicide. Whatever happened to helping people (yes, these are veterinarians who work with animals but people are included in the package as the animal's owners). By helping animals, you directly (or indirectly) impact people's lives. This should be in a positive manner.
Mini rant here. Sorry if I hijacked the topic; I really would like to know some other Bible verses that would apply to this situation.
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Murph
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Post by Murph on Jan 10, 2011 17:04:02 GMT -6
I understand exactly what you mean and thought you expresssed it very well. We are not animals...we are human beings. There is a huge difference.
What do you think regarding "do not resucitate orders?"
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Post by veterinarian on Jan 11, 2011 9:58:14 GMT -6
I understand exactly what you mean and thought you expresssed it very well. We are not animals...we are human beings. There is a huge difference. What do you think regarding "do not resucitate orders?" That is a hard one for me. I used to think that "do not resucitate" was just fine, and not "playing God". But now I am not so certain. God has given us the ability to accomplish incredible medical feats; who are we to decide when our lives are best ended? Is someone commiting suicide by deciding not to be resucitated? Shouldn't we trust God to decide if we will die (or be raptured), when we die, and how we die? But the decision to trust God in exactly how we die is a bit scary to me. Medical procedures can keep a person alive far beyond what used to end our lives. I don't want to suffer pain, whether I can feel it or not.
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Post by veterinarian on Jan 11, 2011 10:09:08 GMT -6
What about the person who is sick beyond medical aid? I am talking about the person with multiple organ failure, and something else very serious such as end-stage cancer. My Father-in-law died in the hospital of stomach cancer with liver failure. The cancer had grown through the wall of his stomach in several different places, and spread to his liver. He experienced a painful, slow death; although he was not conscious for the last 12-24 hours.
He had do not resuscitate orders. Was that the right thing to do in God's eyes? We had prayed and agonized over that decision; in the end, we believed that was what God wanted us to do. I still believe that decision was right.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 11:00:47 GMT -6
If we don't have one of these "go ahead and kill me" orders, you can bet that the government will force one upon us, as we saw in the Terry Schiavo case - a true travesty of justice.
From Wikipedia . . .
End-of-life wishes Given the lack of a living will, a trial was held during the week of January 24, 2000, to determine what Terri's wishes would have been regarding life-prolonging procedures. Testimony from eighteen witnesses regarding her medical condition and her end-of-life wishes was heard. Michael claimed that Terri would not want to be kept on a machine where her chance for recovery was minuscule. According to Abstract Appeal Trial Order, her parents "claimed that Terri was a devout Roman Catholic who would not wish to violate the Church's teachings on euthanasia by refusing nutrition and hydration." Judge George Greer issued his order granting Michael's petition for authorization to discontinue artificial life support for his wife in February 2000. In this decision, the court found that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and that she had made reliable oral declarations that she would have wanted the feeding tube removed. This decision was upheld by the Florida Second District Court of Appeal (2nd DCA) and came to be known by the court as Schiavo I in its later rulings.
>>>>>
Question: how can a court determine another's wishes?
Watching a loved one suffer is certainly difficult (my grandmother lingered in a nursing home for a couple of years, blind, emaciated and unable to move . . . horrible indeed.
During this time the insurance company bled her resources dry and finally the state took over for her "minimal" care.
But still, I see no provision in the Word of God that says that human life is ours to determine - only His.
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Murph
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Post by Murph on Jan 11, 2011 12:11:57 GMT -6
but using artificial means to bring someone back, to recucitate someone ? Whose decision is that? If someone has flatlined and is brought back?
if someone is brain dead...heart has an intrinic beat...do we hook them up to machines and keep a basically dead body going artificially?
If the brain is dead has the soul vacated the body?
Hard questions...at what point are we playing God going in either direction?
Course God can trump man going in either direction too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 13:31:36 GMT -6
I can't fault medical personnel for using every technic at their disposal to save life - if the person dies despite the emt/medical folk's best efforts, it was simply God's predetermined end-of-life for that person.
On the other hand, using "tools" to expedite a person's death when death is not imminent - I vigorously oppose to the fullest extent of my ability to do so.
Part of 0bamacare is set up with death panels that will decide when you or I have lived beyond our usefulness. If there is no prognosis for recovery, expensive medication will be replaced by pain medication which will result in massive savings on the part of the Federal government.
Unfortunately, many of us (including me) are unwilling to do the things necessary to prolong our good health which, in essence, makes us responsible for our own ill health.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 13:37:43 GMT -6
I don't really know what to think about the life-prolonging machines. I know that when the brain dies the patient is rightfully disconnected. However, so long as there is brain activity - who is to say when life should end? Yet, it is fair to assume that the brain will naturally die without the artificial inducements. I would be in favor of a "specified" time restraint, such as maybe 72 hours or even one or two weeks to see if improvement can come naturally.
None of us know what actually happened with the Congresswoman, Gabriel Giffords - but initial reports were that she was lucid and responding to doctor's commands. In this case, and in light of the guarded optimism of the doctors attending to her, mechanical supports are justified.
However, if swelling occurs, there has to be a point where (considering the doctor's experience in the matter) - death would naturally come.
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Post by veterinarian on Jan 11, 2011 16:32:17 GMT -6
I am very much in the minority among the posters in that discussion. The posters supporting suicide talk like life is not worth the pain. There are a few who talk and worry about where to draw the line, but they are only about 10% of the responders.
It is sad to me, when I see so many people who seem to think life is not worth living once things get tough physically. What do these people do when their lives turn negative? A few claim to be attending church.
I will have to study my Bible. I know that there is guidance in the Bible for this situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 16:42:04 GMT -6
If I only needed one reason to prolong life - it is that that person might have a chance to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her Saviour. How horrible to think that a lost person is in hell today because a loved one decided for them that their life was no longer worth living, when perhaps only a few days from that decision the person might be lucid enough to either pick up a Bible and read, or have a visiting pastor tell them the old, old story of Jesus and His love.
How tragic!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 16:46:05 GMT -6
My wife and I were newly saved when we went to the bedside of my grandmother who had lain in that bed by then for two years. Modern thinking would have "assisted" her in her death long before then thinking how nice it would be to be able to use that empty bed for a healthier patient.
We sat by that bedside with an open Bible and led my grandmother to Christ - she was very alert, and understood the message of the gospel very succinctly and asked Him to save her based upon His finished work on the Cross and His offer of the free gift of eternal life.
Sadly, many are not permitted similar glorious opportunities today.
She lived for about another six months after that.
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Murph
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Post by Murph on Jan 11, 2011 17:20:02 GMT -6
I think the newer generation has gotten hung up on pain control and have been programmed by their educations to follow the crowd instead of thinking for themselves.
Also as Christians we all march to a totally different Drummer, have a different set of standards set by God and set out in the Bible.
If the modern rules had been followed in the case of Martha Snell Nicholason we would all have missed out on that beautiful poetry...from her heart, and pain, and love of the Lord came a river of beautiful expressions of life and love for the Lord.
I have a friend who died on New Year's day. She had battled cancer for years...gone thru all the treatment regimines. When the cancer came back last spring she said enough, decided against further treatment and to let nature take it's course.
She died at home in peace and dignity and with such grace. We all were so blessed by her life and by the manner in which she died.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 17:23:02 GMT -6
Speaking of Martha, I am about finished with the book that I have been posting . . . but not to worry, still have a couple more to go.
but you are absolutely correct about Martha . . . and what a loss that would have been.
In fact, I wish more people that are contemplating an early assisted death would read her books. They might just discover that life can be a treasure whether we have our health or not - and that the sick can often times be more of a blessing than the healthy.
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Murph
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Post by Murph on Jan 11, 2011 17:49:52 GMT -6
I am glad there are more poems. I have read alot of them to my SS class. They seem to enjoy them as much as I have.
My friend endured the pain...never complained. I am sorry I didn't think to share Martha's poems with her.
regrets are always a sad thing.
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Post by veterinarian on Jan 14, 2011 14:30:03 GMT -6
A very good reason not to just kill someone.
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Post by veterinarian on Feb 15, 2011 11:31:40 GMT -6
I visited the discussion that veterinarians regarding euthanasia of people again; and there were even more supporters of euthanasia. A few vets were asking for people against assisted suicide to give their reasons. I did not reply. I listed my reasons one time, and if you are not intelligent enough to read the post then you are on your own.
I thought that those asking for more reasons were just fishing for a debate, and not for true answers.
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