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Jude
Sept 7, 2006 8:57:38 GMT -6
Post by Keith on Sept 7, 2006 8:57:38 GMT -6
So these angels are those who "left their own habitation" or dwelling place. They "kept not" their first estate. It's incomprehensible to my mortal mind... To be in the actual presence of Almighty God... And have the audacity to leave Him... Out of pride. FOLLOW ME, FOLLOW ME bellows Lucifer! I'll ascend above the heights of the clouds! I will be like the most High (Isaiah 14:14)! And a third of the angels did... What pride, what vanity, what a fruitless endeavor.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 7, 2006 17:29:40 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 7, 2006 17:29:40 GMT -6
Locked away and all they know is the terrible and everlasting burning of their unholy lust and the sure and certain knowlege that "the judgment of the great day" is coming. The horror of that judgment surely is already on them.
Matthew 8:28-29 tells us that the terror of their impending doom already haunts demons...think how much more it must haunt those angels, former sons of light. They are already chained in darkness and know they will be there forever.
"And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" Matthew 8:28-29
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 7, 2006 18:59:46 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 7, 2006 18:59:46 GMT -6
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7
Many think that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah lie buried deep under the Dead Sea. It is plain when we look at pictures or go to visit the area that some frightening and awful catastrophe happened there.
Those cities and the cities of the plains according to history were located on busy trade routes. But they appear to have been best known, not for the abundant wealth and prosperity, but for their perverted ways. The perverted lifestyles of the inhabitants were not only allowed but promoted and were protected by law.
Perverted societies, that we can read about in history, have always practiced these sinful ways. However, in a more healthy society perversion such as homosexuality have to be practiced in secret. Suggest anything to you about the health of the world today and about the United States?
A society that allows such things to be openly practiced, openly displayed, and even accepted as normal has sunk to a level beyond the level where ordinary lust appeals to them. Normal lust no longer carries any interest and new levels of perversion are invented.
The practice of such behaviors leads to disease and to death. Haven't we seen that with STDs like Aids?
We have been on the verge of passing federal laws in the United States that would protect and foster same sex marriages. If and when that happens...as it already has in some states... society will become a willing partner to the vileness and therefore ripe for judgment. What God thinks of the so called alternative lifestyle of homosexuality He has made very clear in Genesis 19 and in Romans 1.
As we have seen in verse 6 the sin of the fallen angels is very similar to the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah...that is...the sin of going beyond a limit that God has set and into territory forbidden to us by His laws.
As we read, in the cities of the Plains...God does not tolerate for long such blatant disobedience of His Law.
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Jude
Sept 7, 2006 21:52:33 GMT -6
Post by Steve on Sept 7, 2006 21:52:33 GMT -6
You nailed it on the head here, Duck. Acceptance of perversion and sin in the name of "tolerance" does nothing more than encourage us to sink to the lowest common denominator. This permissiveness is destroying our society.
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Jude
Sept 8, 2006 5:32:19 GMT -6
Post by heavenbound on Sept 8, 2006 5:32:19 GMT -6
Amen to you both on this!!! It also irks me that instead of teaching the path of God, our society teaches it is okay to be permissive in their choices of unbiblical lifestyle. Just step up the research to find a drug or treatment to take care of the result of such permissive lifestyles, or pass a law letting society know your choice is okay??? How messed up is our society, when it stresses protection and precaution of unbiblical personal choices one makes, instead of right from wrong biblically?? !! Such examples we set for our future generations digusts me! Seems there is little red tape to go through to offer public viewing, via television, of movies about a teen advocating he or she was born to be of the opposite sex or gay or homosexual. Or movies which advocate a teen who had an opps, out-of-wedlock pregnancy, and prostitution. Yet try to get a movie or even a 2 minute commerical aired which speaks of God and His biblical teaching, and the red tape is miles and miles long, to be cut through!!! ? If we don't change the way we teach our future generations, and allow our media to teach them as well as our society, rest assured, God will handle this for us one day!! Sorry for the ramblin, this just stirs me up!! Love, YSIC, Diana
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 8, 2006 6:04:43 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 8, 2006 6:04:43 GMT -6
Romans 1 is speaking directly to this cause and effect. People refuse to turn from sin, and to the Lord, and continue to give themselves over to sin and the Lord will let them go. They spiral downward and downward ever deeper into the perversions of sin till they finally seek strange flesh...men with men, and women with women. We have seen past evidence of this in all the civilization that have gone into decline. They condone and openly practice homosexuality.
Homosexuality has been excused by modern science and medicine as being caused by genetics. Lord says no, it is a conscience choice on the part of an individual. They choose to be homosexuals! To go in direct opposition to God's Laws.
It is interesting to note that Jude first addresses the apostasy of the church and talks about "certain men crept in"(interesting that they were ordained before of old turning God's grace into something dirty and deny the Lord). Then Jude turns next to sexual perversions . Jude goes straight to satanic invasion, sexual perversion( which is what we are now looking at). Next Jude goes on to social upheaval.
Jude is using examples from the Bible that were well known in his day but today we have to study double to get the full thrust of the Holy Spirit in Jude. We have to read and study Jude and then go back and read and study the OT examples given to understand Jude.
It is a very interesting study...least for me it is.
Even a quick look around...just watching the 6:00 o'clock news gives us examples of what Jude has told us in action in society today.
We are on a collisiion course with the wrath of God. Just before He beginns to spill it out of Heaven...He will call His ambassadors home...With a Shout and a Trump...COME UP HITHER!!!
We are not appointed to wrath!
Amen? and Amen!
Praise the Lord and I thank Him for that! Just reading about the 21 judgments and the pit makes me so very very grateful for that!
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 8, 2006 6:14:16 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 8, 2006 6:14:16 GMT -6
SO GREAT A SALVATION!!! JESUS CHRIST...LORD AND SAVIOR...KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS...
got carried away...Morning all! I also thank the Lord it is finally Friday.
Duck
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Jude
Sept 8, 2006 8:29:21 GMT -6
Post by Steve on Sept 8, 2006 8:29:21 GMT -6
Homosexuality has been excused by modern science and medicine as being caused by genetics. Lord says no, it is a conscience choice on the part of an individual. They choose to be homosexuals! To go in direct opposition to God's Laws. Yes, that's a big argument in the psychology field today, the "nature or nurture" argument. Are people born homosexual or is it something they learned at an early age? This reason, that reason, IT DOESN'T MATTER!! Whatever the reason, God said don't do it! Personally, I have a strong attraction to the opposite gender but God said we are only to exercise that within the bounds of marriage. I have to avert my eyes when doing something as simple as channel surfing. I have to wear (imaginary) blinders when walking through the mall, especially down here in Florida where girls of 12 or 13 wear things in public that 20 years ago would have gotten a grown woman arrested--I've seen people on the beach with more clothes on. Using the homosexuals' argument, it's OK for me to look (or more) at these girls because I was born with this high level of desire. WRONG!! I repress those urges and resist the temptation because that's what God said to do! I keep it within my marriage as God instructed. The reason I have this desire is irrelevant. Whether I was born with it or learned it doesn't matter. What matters is obedience to God, it is a constant battle. There are some who postulate the "thorn" in Paul's side was homosexuality, other find this idea extremely offensive and vehemently deny it. I say, " It doesn't matter!!" What matters is that Paul obeyed God; he resisted and fought it, whatever it may have been. "But," the argument goes, "I can't help it, it's part of who I am." True, that high sex drive is an integral part of the earthly, sinful me. That's why God created another me, a new me, a new creation in Christ Jesus. A new me indwelt of the Holy Spirit to help me fight this battle. We all have things we must overcome; sins and temptations we enjoy in our earthly, sinful selves that we must ask the Holy Spirit to help us resist. For some it's sexual desire; for others it may be drink, swearing, drugs, deceit, theft....the list goes on and on. How we came to enjoy these sins; whether we were born that way or learned them, nature or nurture, is irrelevant! Through the Holy Spirit God has given us the ability to resist and overcome them. He has great plans for those who do and tears for those who do not.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 8, 2006 22:43:56 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 8, 2006 22:43:56 GMT -6
I went to the Mall in a neighboring city today. I was there to pick up a book that I had ordered at the bookstore. I went from the front door of the mall straight to the bookstore and as I gazed at the stores I realized how evil and foul things have become. I couldn't even look at some of the things or at many of the people.
I understand why Abraham stayed to the country and I see why Lot was so vexed.
Lot chose Sodom as a place for he and his family to live but he paid an enormous price for it before it was all over.
Peter gives us an insight that is found no where else in the Bible,
"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)" 2 Peter 2:7-8
Lot was saved, "just Lot"..but what that passage tells us is that not only were the people of Sodom totally perverted...it also tells us that Lot was a tormented man and guilty of staying put when he should have left Sodom far behind. But Lot stayed where abominations were an accepted way of life...accepted as a viable lifestyle.
The sad thing about Lot was that he was vexed...tormented the lifestyle he saw tromented him...but yet he stayed. The Bible doesn't give us a reason exactly. But I suspect that part of it was his wife. She seems to have liked all the material things that their life in the city afforded her. Nice house, and nice things, convience...not like Abraham and his family...country bumpkins out in the "sticks" with no modern conviences.
Maybe it was the position Lot had been placed in by the people of the city. He enjoyed a place of pseudo-prominance in the city. When the angels arrive they find him sitting in the city gates. He was a magistrate. Apparently sworne to up hold the law including the ones that condoned homosexuality and sexual perversion.
In the end Lot lost everything, his money, his home, and his family when God brought His judgment. Lot had compromised and so he forfited his rights to be a prophet to the perverted people among whom he had chosen to live.
But because Lot was a believer, though backslidden, the Holy Spirit made a distinction between Lot and the rest of the people. Lot was righteous. He was not an apostate. The people of Sodom were unbelievers deliberately. They had deliberately rejected the truth and the light.
In Genesis 14:21-24 God brought them in contact with Abraham who told them about God. They ignored Abraham's witness so God brought His judgment down on them.
God gives people who practice such abominations as we saw in Sodom over to their lusts...Romans 1:24,26,28.
Maybe it was pride that kept Lot in Sodom. Pride can cause us to do some pretty stupid things.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 8, 2006 22:48:01 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 8, 2006 22:48:01 GMT -6
It seems to me that Jude used Sodom and Gomorrah as an example because he wanted to show us that apostacy and sodomy are twin evils...and will surely draw God's judgment.
What God thinks of such lifestyles is abundantly clear. Genesis 19 makes it very clear. God will judge harshly and swiftly any society that has turned from morality and decency to the point of falling into the preverted lifestyles of homosexuality...sodomy.
God rained hell from Heaven in His wrath against Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains. They vanished forever in a malestorm of hellfire and brimstone...
"suffering the vengence of eternal fires" v. 7
What happened in Sodom and Gomorrah is just an example and a sample of God's righteous wrath and displeasure.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 9, 2006 20:10:09 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 9, 2006 20:10:09 GMT -6
"Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities." V. 8
Had often wondered what filthy dreamers were till my trip to the mall. Reading Jude maybe had made me more receptive to the examples in what I saw. After I left the Christian bookstore I went to another bookstore also in the mall. I was looking at the magazines and noticed the pictures of models scantily clad showing far too much of themselves, and of teenagers in provocative poses. I went to a children's clothing shop and was very disappointed to see the clothes for little girls looked more like what a street walker would wear. I remembered the recent increase of criminal cases involving child pornography and the increase in sex crimes in general...my mind went from example to example of 'filthy dreamers."
I think Jude is showing how apostasy under minds the standards and morals of society. Once people have gotten so brazen as to throw out the truths in the Bible they seem to have no hesitation in flaunting their contempt and lack of regard for the moral laws and standards of conduct in society.
After my afternoon of examples it became clear to me that Jude is calling the people who produce that kind of trash and the people who buy it "filthy dreamers." Furthermore, Jude says they "defile the flesh." Notice that Jude doesn't say they defile their flesh, he says "defile the flesh." We have all heard of things done to and with animals.
These people say and do unspeakable things in their pornographic fantasies. They become deadened to all sense of decency. It becomes a sexual "free for all." This is what we are seeing going on in the world today.
Taken a look at prime time TV lately? We have gone from the days in which Ricky and Lucy(I Love Lucy) were shown sleeping in twin beds on TV, to today when people all but have sexual intercourse on prime time TV.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 9, 2006 20:25:49 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 9, 2006 20:25:49 GMT -6
This question entered my mind. Do ya'll think this might have begun when seminaries, preachers, and other people who are supposed to set the standards by displaying Christian behavior and teaching the Truths of the Bible began to re-define moral norms? And might that not directly stem from the apparent fact that people no longer read their Bibles...no longer center their lives and their families lives on the church and on the Lord?
Isn't it amazing how fast it all happened? The churches overall appear to almost condone the perversion and decadence of todays society if in no other way than by just ignoring it...
The Church at Laodecia looms large in the mind...
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 9, 2006 20:49:31 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 9, 2006 20:49:31 GMT -6
One of the biggest cesspools of all times for "filthy dreamers" today...is the internet.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 10, 2006 20:07:25 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 10, 2006 20:07:25 GMT -6
"...despise dominion..."
disregard for government...to the point of wanting and trying to overthrow government.
Maybe the efforts of the followers of Islam are an example of this. They have no respect, fear, or regard for God, governments of other countries, other people. Their total thrust is to overthrow, and conquer, and kill anyone who opposes them.
But then so might be organizations like the World Council of Churches which try to substitute liberal ideas for the Gospel. They have supported and given money to so many liberal causes around the world.
It struck me as I was reading and thinking that the ecumenical movement is just another name for communism.
The passage from the Bible "...every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25
might also apply to the individual today. People are trying to reinvent the Church and God, and make the Bible say what they want instead of what it says. It is like my Grandfather said, "God created man in His image and ever since man has been trying to re-create God in his."
People, in their lives today are making their own rules, focusing on self, and are displaying a disregard for the Lord and His laws.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 10, 2006 20:33:26 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 10, 2006 20:33:26 GMT -6
"...speak evil of dignities..." This little fella seems to fit here. People who speak evil of dignities are people who rant and rail against people who should be given respect because of age, rank, and or position. It also speaks to people who speak ill of God or the things of God. We see more and more of this in our society today. People openly mock others who have some rule over us. Romans 13:1... "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."They are railing and speaking evil against God Himself. Movies, books, and other mediums are other examples from today...in our times. Today's authors, producers, and so forth think nothing of trampling the Name of the Lord and all things Christian, decent, right into the ground.
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 20, 2006 21:33:39 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 20, 2006 21:33:39 GMT -6
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." v. 9
"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. Ane he burried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Deut. 34:5-6
That has always seemed to me to be such a word picture. The Lord God Almighty with his own Hands laying Moses to rest in a lonely valley and a solitary grave. The location is marked only to God.
But Jude tells us next that the Archangel Michael contended with Satan about the body of Moses. Jude doesn't tell us why Satan wanted the body of Moses or when exactly this exchange between Michael and Satan took place.
Some say it is because Satan wanted the body so the Hebrews would make it a thing to worship. Satan so often has used this ploy, even in the church. People who are deluded and gullible will woship even bit of cloth and parts of bodies of supposed saints having been told they have magical powers if worshiped and revered. That is only if the proper rituals and pomp are used.
If people can be duped, pursuaded, coxed or by any means led to pray and crawl to, worship and venerate, cry over and to any piece of decaying rotting human flesh then Satan is delighted. When people are fooled, then God is mocked, and Satan laughs at the foolishness of unsaved people.
that is one explanation but...
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 20, 2006 21:34:18 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 20, 2006 21:34:18 GMT -6
there is another one as well.
To have appeared on the Mt. of Transfiguration Moses had to be raised from the dead. Satan had the power of death...
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil..." Hebrews 2:14
he had the power until the Resurrection of Christ...
"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:18
That would make Moses the representative of "the dead in Christ" who will rise at the time of the Lord's return. Wouldn't it?
Elijah was also there and would then represent those who are caught up without dying.
So Elijah and Moses would have been to Satan proof that the Lord was about to defeat him in His death on the Cross.
That would give Satan great reason to try to prevent the resurrection of Moses' body by taking possession of it.
Which ever the reson for the contending over the body of Moses it is obvious that Michael had great power and great responsibility.
Yet Jude tells us that Michael exercised restraint...
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Murph
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Jude
Sept 20, 2006 21:35:38 GMT -6
Post by Murph on Sept 20, 2006 21:35:38 GMT -6
That raises so interesting thoughts about the two witnesses. Revelation 11
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Jude
Sept 21, 2006 8:47:03 GMT -6
Post by Keith on Sept 21, 2006 8:47:03 GMT -6
That raises so interesting thoughts about the two witnesses. Revelation 11 Interestingly Marilyn, I was just talking about this the other day with some brethren on another board! Here's what I offered: The two witnesses will not appear until after the Rapture of the Church, primarily because their witness will be to the nation of Israel during the first half of the Tribulation (Revelation 11:3, Malachi 4:5). I believe they will be Elijah and Moses. Here's the Scriptures that support that... First, Elijah: "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." ( 2 Kings 2:11 ) "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:" ( Malachi 4:5 ) In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah was raptured to Heaven directly in front of Elisha. Enoch was also raptured ( Genesis 5:24 ), but not in front of witnesses as Elijah was, or as the two witnesses will be at the end of their mission. Also, the Malichi 4:5 verse tells us that Elijah will absolutely be sent for that specific mission. Now, Moses: "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." ( Jude 1:9 ) The Archangel Michael was given the task of the disposition of Moses body, but was confronted by Satan who also wanted it. And we know that Michael prevailed ( Jude 1:9 )! With Moses being the one to whom God 'personally' gave the law, and then to send Michael to claim his body would only confirm the fact of Moses impending usefulness. Please also consider this: The appearance of both Elijah and Moses as the two witnesses would have a four-fold representation: 1. Those who have mortally died such as Moses and past generations; 2. Those who were raptured such as Elijah, Enoch, and Cristians taken in the Rapture; 3. The Law (Moses); 4. And the Prophets (Elijah). Both Moses and Elijah as the two witnessess would also be akin to the identical appearance made by them during the transfiguration of Jesus in Mark 9, which I believe was done as a sign of their appearance as the two witnesses during Tribulation.
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Jude
Sept 21, 2006 12:15:03 GMT -6
Post by Steve on Sept 21, 2006 12:15:03 GMT -6
It struck me as I was reading and thinking that the ecumenical movement is just another name for communism. I've said before, ecumenicalism is a great idea on paper, the problem is the execution. About three years go I wrote a study on unity, here's an exerpt: With our human bodies there are certain things we must do in order to stay healthy and productive. Proper diet and exercise are of utmost importance. Improper diet can lead to obesity and heart disease, as can lack of exercise. Many people ingest toxins in the name of fun; some sects of our society even give these poisons the seemingly innocuous name of "recreational drugs". The majority of these people are not intentionally trying to harm themselves, they are simply weak in the flesh; the feeling of euphoria they get from these substances overrides their desire to stay healthy. The current ecumenical movement treats the Body of Christ the same way. As I have said in previous studies, the ecumenical movement is a wonderful idea in theory. Webster's Dictionary of the English Language defines ecumenical as "encouraging universal Christian unity; of, pertaining to or being a movement toward universal Christian unity". What a wonderful concept! All professed Christians world-wide getting along and worshipping together. The problem arises when we include all "professed" Christians. It has been my experience that the vast majority of "professed" Christians only profess to be so when it suits their lifestyle. When pieces of their lives they wish left alone are touched by God's Truth they want to change that particular doctrine to something that feels better, to a false doctrine that returns them to that feeling of euphoria. Unfortunately, the current ecumenical movements allow these false doctrines to infect them in the interest of unity and increased membership. (You can read the entire study here.)
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